Sunday, September 24, 2006

The Dead Have Risen And Are Voting Volpe

It's hard to even feign surprise at news like this.

In Other News...
1. It appears that Dion, Dryden and Brison are in hot water over leaking Liberal lists to the Globe & Mail for their quasi-scientific survey conducted last week. Brison says his campaign never gave the Globe their lists and given his impeccable track record of keeping confidential information to himself, I'm inclined to believe him.

As for Dion and Dryden, expect a slap on the wrist and a fine from the party (which could be a problem given their financial situations).

It also wouldn't surprise me to see certain individuals in the Quebec wing of the party chastised for this after the Quebec membership list was leaked to the Star to investigate Volpe's membership sales.

2. This is actually really encouraging. Who would have thought the Tories would put stricter emissions standards in place than the Liberals?


  • The big question is: how many dead children did Volpe buy memberships for?

    By Blogger Hey, at 5:41 p.m.  

  • Again, I'm going to go against the grain on the membership list issue.

    As far as I know, third parties are allowed to get their hands on membership lists. Bob Rae has used a third party call centre. I'm sure they were handed a membership list. Should he be punished, too?

    As long as the confidentiality agreement was signed by Strategic Counsel, and the membership lists stay private — and don't go public — I'm not exactly sure what the problem is.

    By Blogger Dennis (Second Thoughts), at 5:49 p.m.  

  • Oh, and it seems to me that the people who are complaining the most are the ones who were disappointed most by their guys standing in the SC poll.

    Next weekend we'll have a much better idea of what's going on anyway, so....

    And, for the record, I'm skeptical of the SC poll, too. I just don't see why it would be considered such a gross violation of party ethics.

    By Blogger Dennis (Second Thoughts), at 6:01 p.m.  

  • There are news reports claiming Osama Bin Laden is dead. This is obviously untrue.

    If he were dead, Volpe would have him signed up.

    By Blogger Reality Bites, at 6:02 p.m.  

  • This is a non issue membership lists are used for pols all the time.

    By Blogger s.b., at 6:32 p.m.  

  • The problem here is that we're all talking in a vacuum.

    The entire issue turns on the terms of the confidentiality agreement between the party and the leadership camps, but no one knows what those terms are. If providing the list to a pollster is a permitted use and the camps complied with the terms of the agreement, there is no problem.

    However, I don't like the idea of the leadership camps being permitted to give lists to pollsters for publicly released polls. As we've seen in the last week, polls can have a serious effect on people's perceptions, and so an unscrupulous campaign might stack the list with known supporters, skewing the results to give their campaign a boost.

    I'm not accusing any of the camps here of doing that, of course. I think Brison's people even joked that if they had given SC the list, they would have included more of their supporters.

    By Blogger Winnipeg Liberal, at 6:50 p.m.  

  • As others have pointed out the use of membership lists by the Strategic Counsel pollsters appears to be a moot point.

    I'm much more interested in which camp supplied the membership list to Linda Diebel of the TorStar.

    Early speculation seems to favor Iggy's guys but given Dionne's public pronouncement of faith in Joe's innocence, just as the story broke............I gotta go with my gut here.

    Cherniak you farkin sneaky bastich!!! LOL!!!

    On a more serious note....I have it from a reliable source that Volpe managed to sign up Lazarus.

    I also hear Joe will be holding tomorrows press conference in the middle of the Rideau Canal clad only in sandals and a robe.



    By Blogger syncrodox, at 7:46 p.m.  

  • On the emissions story, I guess you missed the government's denial:

    By Blogger A BCer in Toronto, at 8:07 p.m.  

  • The Liberal Dead are proud to announce their support for Joe Volpe.

    Judge us not by the colour of our skin or the tempo of our heartbeat. We are loyal Liberals, even in death.

    Rise up for Canada!

    By Blogger Dead for Volpe, at 8:15 p.m.  

  • I doubt SC would base its poll on membership lits it thought were manipulated, which is probably one reason they got three lists to work with.

    I've got my problem with polls, but I don't think Alan Gregg would stake his reputation on samples that weren't representative of the population he was polling: members of the Liberal party.

    And membership lists are used all the time to affect the perception of members. That's the point of getting them and trying to convince members to support you instead of the other guy.

    In fact, giving the lists to a respected pollster like SC is probably a more up-and-up thing to do than doing your own push-polling, for example.

    I suppose one can question the motives of the camps who handed over lists. For Dion and Dryden, they obviously felt their popularity with members would help them if published. Dion was probably right. And they can both use some free publicity, given their apparently weak organizations.

    By Blogger Dennis (Second Thoughts), at 8:45 p.m.  

  • "Who would have thought the Tories would put stricter emissions standards in place than the Liberals?"

    I did! Paul Wells! Although I'm not sure I took the trouble to predict it. Damn.

    But what is Harper? Before he's a Reformer or a Conservative or, pace the Walrus, a religious nutbar — what is he in his essence, as Hannibal Lecter would say?

    He's a strategist. And what's the best way to kick out the Liberals' legs before the next election? Beat them on the environment. Jean Chrétien made sure it wouldn't be hard...

    By Blogger Paul, at 8:50 p.m.  

  • cyber menace; It's not a bad poll compared to the other ones which are out there since it did use the actual lists. I'd be really curious to see the exact methodology they used.

    And your hunch about why Dion and Dryden would turn over their lists is really interesting and probably spot on.

    By Blogger calgarygrit, at 8:59 p.m.  

  • As for the act of turning it over, it comes down to whatever agreement they signed with the party. If they broke the agreement, they broke the agreement - it's that simple.

    That said, I don't think it's a big deal and I can't imagine anyone basing their vote on it.

    By Blogger calgarygrit, at 9:00 p.m.  

  • Volpe is now undeniably the front runner in this campaign. Tomorrow he'll tell us all how this is just another example of anti-Italian sentiment and discrimination. It's all a major conspiracy against ol' Diamond Joe I mean Volpe.

    By Blogger Riley Hennessey, at 9:46 p.m.  

  • Wells makes a good point.

    I wonder what this does to Dion's bid. He's been running a one trick show of "all environment, all the time" this campaign. Between the AG's report and Rona one-upping him, how does the guy manage to keep any credibility he had on the environment? Liberals can't win an election on that topic and Dion hasn't said anything else of much substance this campaign.

    By Blogger Jeff Thompson, at 9:58 p.m.  

  • Yes, Dion's decision to be the environmental candidate is a funny one, given the actual Liberal record on the environment. However, the audience here is Liberals. And Liberals prefer people who talk a good game on the environment rather than actually do anything about it. Some of the other camps have made some runs against Dion on this score. I suspect you'll hear more if they start to see Dion as a threat, which I don't think they do yet. Rae was the one on the receiving end of attacks when this poll was released, not Dion.

    By Blogger Dennis (Second Thoughts), at 10:26 p.m.  

  • I wonder if Volpe received advice from Tom Long in how to set up membership lists in Quebec.

    By Blogger Bailey, at 10:50 p.m.  

  • How shocking to see "Bart Ramson" using his blog to attack Joe Volpe.

    I've got some news for you. If Kennedy wants to win he is going to need to bring Joe over to give him a hug.

    Are you going to be nice to Volpe and his team if they join Kennedy?

    By Blogger A Toronto Liberal, at 12:16 a.m.  

  • Anyone got an idea why the Strategic Counsel would have wanted 3 lists? And how did the media get hold of Volpe's list?

    I have to say I'm really disappointed in the way some of you bloggers take for granted that if someone has been accused of something, they must be guilty, and then continue to harp on it long after the person has been exculpated - e.g. "given his impeccable track record of keeping confidential information to himself..."

    He never had confidential information in the first place! And quite clearly you are not inclined to believe him.

    Scott Brison was investigated by the RCMP and exonerated. I did a fairly through study on the subject myself in case you're open truth and fairness wrt Kennedy's competition.

    By Blogger Penny, at 1:10 a.m.  

  • good post penny. why did SC need 3 copies? did they ask everyone, and only those 3 said they would break the rules? did they not like the list supplied by one camp?
    i also agree people jump to conclusions of guilt too easily. i will put a motion on the floor in montreal that anyone who creates a website dedicated SOLELY to attacking any MP or party member have their membership revoked. Our party has too many people doing negative campaigning and taking shots at each other.

    By Blogger ktr, at 1:32 a.m.  

  • I've been away for awhile, so it's comforting to come back and find that sad sack BigCityLiberal still beating the Volpe drum. My god, man! Where is your self-respect? Your self-awareness? Your shame?

    Even Jimmy K finally gave up.

    Only Volpe, Volpe's mother, and the dead are supporting him. Which are you?

    By Blogger Scott in Ottawa, at 2:24 a.m.  

  • Oh my god, anyone who is tired of the ridiculous comments of Toronto Liberal raise their hands...

    *everyone raises their hands*

    I thought so.

    By Blogger Riley Hennessey, at 8:08 a.m.  

  • I've got some news for you. If Kennedy wants to win he is going to need to bring Joe over to give him a hug.

    Joe Who?

    Mr. Volpe will not be a candidate at the convention. And Mr. Clark, while he certainly commands far more respect and affection in the Liberal party than Mr. Volpe, is not actually a candidate.

    By Blogger Reality Bites, at 9:25 a.m.  

  • Oops. I meant to cast aspersions at Toronto Liberal, not Big City Liberal. But you can see my mistake. Cherniak, BCL, Toronto Liberal, Joe Volpe...who can tell them apart?

    By Blogger Scott in Ottawa, at 9:29 a.m.  

  • CG, I really enjoy your writing and your blog. Plus I give you kudos for giving credit to the Conservatives for their very mild steps in the right direction.

    But I've got to take severe issue with this:

    "This is actually really encouraging. Who would have thought the Tories would put stricter emissions standards in place than the Liberals?"

    Anyone who wasn't completely blinded by Liberal partisanship would have thought it. The Liberals record on the environment was appalling. Sure the Conservatives are no great shakes, but it's hard for any reasonable person to see how they could possibly be worse.

    Toronto Liberals claim that they're for Kyoto and reducing GHG emissions and improving our air quality. Yet how many Toronto Liberals spoke out against NDP Mayor Miller's plan to send 750,000 tonnes of garbage a year 200km down the 401 on polluting diesel trucks? How about none? Toronto's interests will always come before the environment's for most Liberals.

    By Blogger greeen party voter, at 9:47 a.m.  

  • We can only be thrilled to learn that Gagliano is supporting Volpe.

    Hedy Fry will announce that she is pulling out today and will throw ALL her support behind Bob Rae.

    By Blogger Down & Out in L A, at 11:33 a.m.  

  • And now Ignatief has his own dead supporters as well. (Link to CP story in Toronto Star)

    The latest complaint lists 48 members in Ignatieff’s Etobicoke-Lakeshore riding who have allegedly admitted they did not sign a membership form or pay the membership fee, as required by party rules and electoral law.

    As well, the complaint lists 11 members in the riding of Brampton-Springdale who all gave the same home address, which the complainant alleges is actually an Indian restaurant. Brampton Springdale is held by MP Ruby Dhalla, a top Ignatieff supporter.

    The complaint was filed by George Kunz, a longtime Liberal from Burlington who said he’s not affiliated with any of the leadership camps.

    By Blogger Reality Bites, at 12:48 p.m.  

  • "Hedy Fry will announce that she is pulling out today and will throw ALL her support behind Bob Rae."

    Wow, that will put Rae over the top for sure, lol...

    By Blogger Toronto Tory, at 1:10 p.m.  

  • reality: Now, I guess, the question is whether all the bloggers that said "Joe, quit" will say the same about Ignatieff--especially considering the persistent claims that Ignatieff was likely behind the Papineau allegations in the first place, as a move to try and force Volpe out.

    (And, let's be honest, those anonymous kids that Paul Wells was ranting about. I somehow doubt they were Rae or Kennedy backers. No proof, of course, but it ain't Kennedy that benefits from Volpe releasing his block of center-right votes and/or delegates.)

    Is taking money from kids worse than Nixon-style "ratf--king"?

    Guess we'll find out.

    By Blogger Demosthenes, at 2:10 p.m.  

  • Green Party Voter,

    With regards to your complaint about Toronto's trash, I have also argued with a former Green Party candidate in TO who would not support a plan to build a waste-to-electricity plant that could handle 70% of Toronto's trash. His reasoning was that this would force recycling efforts to compete for the use of the garbage, as if there's not enough garbage for both. Sometimes it's not just the Liberals.

    By Blogger Brian C, at 2:17 p.m.  

  • Green Party; No arguments here. The Liberals have a pretty bad record on the environment - I won't argue that.

    By Blogger calgarygrit, at 2:18 p.m.  

  • penny; I like Scott a lot - just couldn't resist the gentle jab.

    You're right about the SC poll - as I've said before, I don't put a lot of stock in these leadership polls.

    By Blogger calgarygrit, at 2:19 p.m.  

  • Well, if you think that it bad... check out:

    Liberalism at its best.

    By Blogger cute_stuff, at 4:32 p.m.  

  • Brian C: I know our party has a lot of people with `interesting' ideas. I'm hoping that as we become more mainstream we'll reduce the fringe element. Hopefully we can accomplish this without completely selling out.

    Far too many of us Greens either have completely pie-in-the-sky ideas (if only more of us could understand a cost-benefit analysis) or are only interested in the environment as a vehicle for their true agenda - promoting anti-corporate ideas. I worked at Greenpeace for some time and we had loads of people who seemed disinterested about the environment but jumped on every anti-corporate or anti-globalization idea.

    CG: I really don't want to be a One-Note Nancy and I do appreciate you allowing dissenting opinions. I'm frustrated at the Liberals because, unlike the Conservatives, they should do better on this file. Unlike my party there's a real possibility you guys may come into power and somebody has to hold the Liberals accountable on the environment. The Conservatives can't credibly do it and the NDP seem to flit from issue-to-issue.

    My interest is the environment first and partisan politics second. I'd gladly vote for any party if I felt they'd do the most good for the environment. Even the Conservatives, though I'd feel terrible doing so.

    By Blogger greeen party voter, at 6:33 p.m.  

  • Wow, The competence level is sure at risk. If these are the future liberals then damn Harper will have funs. You Morons, consistently bashing does not help your cause. You all seem to forget that a so called "intellect" has signed up 2 dead people, 69 people in Eto-Lakeshore who never paid, to top it all 11 people signed up by Dalbir Kathuria, an Iggy Delegate in an indian restaurant. If this is exceptable then give Iggy the robe that his friends wore today and ride with them. Calgary Grit, stay with bashing ethnic politicians. someday Alberta might except you

    By Blogger Erie Girl, at 12:56 a.m.  

  • I'm frustrated at the Liberals because, unlike the Conservatives, they should do better on this file.

    As a current Green supporter, this really isn't the case. Conservation and conservatism both believe that you shouldn't live beyond your means. They are the more natural fit. Yanking the Liberal chain on the environment is a bit like still griping at Bill Clinton for American issues. What's the point?

    By Blogger Brian C, at 10:24 a.m.  

  • GPV: You're aware that very many greenies, lefties, and Liberals treat anyone even thinking of doing a cost benefit analysis of environmental, social, or tax policy as inherently evil. Simply asking if reducing vehicle weight is worth the increased death rate on the highway and wondering about the elasticity of gasoline consumption has resulted in me being called an evil nazi who hates the environment.

    The fact that gas consumption has a very large component that is highly elastic is ignored by the greenies sometimes, especially when they're trying to win votes. If you want reduced demand, the easiest way to do this is to raise gas taxes. Increased efficiency increases the overall costs of driving (higher initial cost and higher financing costs, as well as losses to more deadly accidents) while cutting the marginal cost of each trip, thereby increasing demand for gas. The increased capital costs are less likely to have any significant effect on gas demand, as people switch to cheaper cars, cheaper ways of obtaining a car (leasing), or keeping older cars on the road longer (used or their own, which is bad 2 ways, given the higher consumption of older cars).

    Unfortunately, nearly everyone to the left of Stephen Harper is either incapable of maintaining a rational argument or cynically believes that voters care more about emotions rather than rational debate. Their occasional success (WK's Barney attacks) has pushed people further down this road, and makes policy arguments impossible to have outside of CPC members (though of course there are even areas internally there, especially social issues, where people on both sides refuse to debate rather than emote)

    By Blogger Hey, at 2:59 p.m.  

  • CG - I did see it as a "gentle jab" actually, but was feeling a bit hypersensitive when I commented the first time. Had just come from reading some really nasty and unwarranted comments on the same story at the Globe and Mail.

    Remind me to stay away from reading that (G&M) horse manure, will you?

    By Blogger Penny, at 6:24 p.m.  

  • Interesting that the Liberal critic is still playing the ol' "Use CEPA" tagline... Using CEPA is a huge mistake as there are so many legal issues with it that it's likely any attempt to use CEPA would result in decades of litigation... as is it's actually illigal to use CEPA to regulate CO2.

    anyway.. good to see the auto-makers aren't getting a free ride anymore, and that the current plan basicly follows what Alberta government and industry has been saying all along... it's going to take take at least till 2010 to get a comprehensive plan organized and in place....

    the best thing for the environment now is to not have an election for the next 4 years.... cause every time we have an election the entire Environment plan starts at Square 1.

    By Blogger Sierra, at 6:32 p.m.  

  • erie,
    good post and very pointed. I agree too many of us are taking shots at other candidates. very interesting about Village of India and Dalbir Kathuria. Is he actually a delegate? Does he have any other titles in the campaign? i will see what i can find out. i have not heard a word about anyone investigating my claims for the ridings of calgary west, edmonton leduc, edmonton mill woods, and medicine hat. i would like to hear someone actually make some calls and tell me i am dead wrong or dead right. ignoring it doesnt change the truth.

    By Blogger ktr, at 1:13 a.m.  

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