Thursday, December 09, 2004

A Marriage Made in Heaven

I really hate to take on another big Alberta “grievance” so soon after the gun registry post but today’s Supreme Court decision is too important to ignore. Maybe I’ll even follow this up with my pro-Kyoto commentary if the Martin government ever decides to come up with some sort of plan for it.

As for gay marriage, I’m strictly against it. I feel that the definition of marriage must be changed, but it must be changed to the following:

1. No woman past menopause and no man with a low sperm count should be allowed to marry. Listening to conservatives today, I learned gay marriage is wrong because gay couples can not have children (and yet these same people are against gay couples adopting. Hmm…). In addition, any couple which fails to conceive within the first five years of marriage will have their marriage annulled.

2. Religious reasons are cited for opposition by those advocating the “traditional” definition of marriage. Given the numerous wives of key Old Testament figures, I therefore move that polygamy be made legal. I’m also hoping that the criminal code can be modified so that all who work on the Sabbath and commit adultery are stoned to death but this is a different discussion for a different time.

3. On the same vein why do we let atheists marry? Haven’t these godless heathens done enough harm as it is without destroying the blessed institution of holy matrimony?

4. Given the cry that marriage is a “traditional” institution and that modifications to it will lead us down a slippery slope to men marrying toasters, it’s paramount that we reverse previous changes to the “traditional” definition of marriage which have started us down this slope. Primarily, I have grave concerns about the move to allow interracial marriage. Likewise, I’m not keen on changes to the traditional voting definition so hopefully Mr. Cotler will move quickly to remove the franchise from women.

5. Given that we don’t want to “cheapen” the definition of marriage, why do we allow marriages by those who have already cheapened this institution by receiving a divorce? Or cheating on their spouses? Or forgetting their wife’s birthday?

Since this decision is now in the hands of such capable members of parliament as Tom Wappel, Dan McTeague, and David Kilgour, I’m confident we’ll finally get a definition of marriage all Canadians can live with.



On a serious note, if anyone knows of any good arguments against gay marriage, please post them in the comments section since I have never once heard a credible argument against allowing equal marriage. I’ve heard good arguments against Kyoto, against the gun registry, in favour of Missile Defense, even in favour of asymmetrical federalism. These arguments haven’t convinced me but at least they’re there. There has to be a reason 40-45% of Canadians oppose allowing gays to marry but, for the life of me, I have yet to hear a good reason. Surely one exists, right?


159 Comments:

  • The only feasible argument I know of is that since "marriage" is defined as being between a man and a woman, allow homosexual couples who want to enjoy the same priveledges to enter into a "civil union" which confers all the same benifits of a "marriage" without actually being called "marriage".

    Actually, I fail to see why this reasoning is not used more often - it gets around all of the sticky human rights/equality arguements and simple targets the semantics of the thing.

    Thus the "tradition definition of marriage" folk should be satisfied (since marriage is still a man 1 woman thing) and the homosexual couples should be satisfied (since they get all the same rights as other couples).

    By Blogger Andrew, at 11:00 p.m.  

  • Sarcasm aside, I'd be interested in hearing a liberal's opinion about the idea of marriage as something that only makes sense if you have (or are planning to soon have) kids. (Including gay couples who adopt, and I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be allowed to.) I've been thinking about that idea lately, and I haven't convinced myself yet, but the idea still seems kinda interesting to me.

    Do you have an objection to the idea that marriage only makes sense when you've got kids, or are you just objecting to the hypocrisy that you perceive in conservatives?

    By Blogger Adam, at 1:52 a.m.  

  • Ooooh, i know some PERFECTLY good reasons.

    Prejudice. Bigotry. Intolerance. Hatred.

    I think that's reason enough.

    By Blogger DJC, at 9:22 a.m.  

  • The "civil union" idea is not adequate. If you need to give someone's rights a different name, then their rights aren't equal.

    The civil union idea works only if all marriages, as recognised by the state, are defined as civil unions. If religious institutions want to ring bells and change hats during their civil union ceremonies -- heck, if they want to call them "weddings" or "partnerings" or "joininations" or whatever -- that's their business.

    Let's take the civil institution back from the religious groups. About time that happened.

    Incidentally, I have to commend Martin for having the foresight to bring into the Supreme Court decision the question of religious institutions being forced to perform gay marriages. That whole straw man argument is now moot.

    Does anyone know of any specific Charter right that would be affected by gay marriage? (I asked my (CPC) MP but haven't heard back yet.)

    Sorry if this was a threadjack -- this is my first time reading this blog and I enjoyed the post very much.

    By Blogger M@, at 11:54 a.m.  

  • The problem with civil unions as I see it is that they come down to a "separate but equal" type law. You know, blacks can have their own schools and waterfountains so it's OK to ban them from the public system.

    I simply don't see the objections religious groups have since they're not being forced into this. If they're worried it will cheapen marriage, why not give special "Holy Catholic Marriage" licenses to those married in a Church, to "prove" their marriage is worth more?

    By Blogger calgarygrit, at 12:18 p.m.  

  • Calgarygrit/M@:

    Continuing to play the devil's advocate, I fail to see how giving people the EXACT SAME RIGHTS but just calling the two types of unions something different is discriminatory.

    M@'s scenario is especially off-base. A better analogy would be to say that both white and black folk can drink from the same water fountain, however when a white person does it we'll call it slurping, and when a black person does it we'll call it drinking.

    When you start claiming that people have the right to apply a certain label to themselves you cheapen the whole concept of rights. A right is a set of priveledges that society allows you to enjoy. Labels and semantics have nothing to do with rights.

    By Blogger Andrew, at 4:14 p.m.  

  • Whoops - that was Calgarygrit's example

    By Blogger Andrew, at 4:15 p.m.  

  • What the hell is a 'civil union' anyway? I know that Montreal streets are icy, and the civic union there is anything but civil about it.

    Article 16 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948), states that men and women of "full age" have the right to "marry". Of course this is just a silly United Nations document, but if it had said that men and women of full age have the right to "civil unions" then everything would be fine.

    But what happened is that Canadian secular law uses the term "marriage" in the same way as it would use "civil union", while religious organizations choose to define it a different way (even different religions define it differently among themselves) - "marriage" is (effectively) a synonym.

    By Blogger L. Miller, at 6:55 p.m.  

  • Having a two-tiered system -- hetero marriage and same-sex civil unions -- is indeed a possible case of "separate but equal" not really being equal.

    If we followed the civil union path, it is quite easy to imagine a province passing legislation that gives benefits to married people but not people in a civil union. Or a corporation could confer benefits to married employees but not civil union employees.

    That's a decidedly different outcome than the one we seem to be headed towards now.

    By Blogger Andrew Spicer, at 8:00 p.m.  

  • James; You might be right about the election thing...this legislation might not pass until the end of 2005 and we could have an election before that. Considering Martin's never really been adamently pro-gay marriage, he's going to have a tough balancing act.

    I disagree with you on the "tragedy" point though. That argument rests solely on the assumption that marriage=children. As I was trying to point out, a lot of people don't get married to have children. If you want to say that only those interested in having children can get married, then fine - otherwise, it's discriminatory to deny marriage to gay couples.

    I'll look up those articles someone posted above because I've yet to see a good argument on how allowing gays to marry "cheapens" other marriages.

    By Blogger calgarygrit, at 10:08 p.m.  

  • Matt stole all my arguments - so I'll just say: "what he said". This country has lost it's will to compromise on anything.

    By Blogger Andrew, at 11:52 a.m.  

  • realwannabe: It isn't about love. It's about children. I agree that the conservatives seem to me like they're kinda hypocritical about this, but I still think there's a really important point there.

    Why do you value commitment? I like waking up every morning and knowing that my girlfriend is still with me because she chooses to be, because she hasn't found anybody better, not just because she made a promise. I'd be willing to give up that feeling for the sake of providing a stable household for my kids, but why would you give up that feeling if you can't have kids, or aren't planning to have kids for a long time?

    I'm completely in favour of allowing gay couples to get married and adopt kids, and I think it would be pretty silly to try to make a law saying that couples (gay or straight) can't get married until just before they plan to have kids. So I'm not talking about politics here; just about small-scale personal values. But my point is that if you're going to try to convince a conservative to see things your way, talking about how marriage is about "recognizing love" just shows them that you've missed the point. It undermines your position, because love is more meaningul when it's not promised, and commitment just for the sake of commitment just shows that you're scared that your partner will find somebody better. For a conservative, marriage isn't about recognizing love; it's about recognizing a sacrifice that you promise to make for the sake of your children. And I agree with them on that part.

    By Blogger Adam, at 4:43 p.m.  

  • What's interesting is now that the Supreme court has ruled, how long until Mormons or Muslims are before the courts pursuing justification for polygamy? I'm a supporter of same-sex marriage, but I have to admit I have considerable discomfort with the idea of polygamy. But where's my justification for legally forbidding it now?

    By the way, Andrew at Bound By Gravity also has an interesting post on this today.

    By Blogger Janie For Mayor, at 4:53 p.m.  

  • While I think realwannabe is right from a legal perspective, I personally have no problem with polygammy. I couldn't care less if a guy marries five women or a woman marries four men. It doesn't affect me at all unless it becomes a sort of tax fraud situation and I don't see that happening.

    So long as you don't make it specific to one gender (ie. only men can have multiple wives), I don't have a huge problem with it.

    By Blogger calgarygrit, at 7:41 p.m.  

  • I can think of one argument against the vigorous pursuit of the SSM issue by the Gay & Lesbian lobby. Its a gift to the conservatives as the wedge issue that can win them seats in parliament or Presidencies of the United States. How many elections are the left of centres going to be willing to take it on the chin due to this issue?

    By Blogger Bill, at 4:45 p.m.  

  • Neither present-day Canadian judges nor Canadian Members of Parliament are the ultimate authority on the lawful definition of marriage in Canada.

    The Lawful Definition of Marriage in Canada
    http://www.ocii.com/~dpwozney/marriage.htm

    By Blogger David Wozney, at 2:26 p.m.  

  • Apologies, I didn't have time to read through all the comments before posting mine. I just started my own blog - although not a member of the Blogging Tories, my present political thoughts are much more at home there than here (I did pass for a Grit for a stretch in my young life) - anyway, my brand new blog started off with a copy of Calgary Bishop Fred Henry's recent pastoral letter regarding SSM. It's rather long (and I want more traffic anyway), so you can hop over my way if you're at all interested in what rationale he gave. Perhaps after I read through the comments, I'll leave my own take on why SSM shouldn't happen (later though). In the meantime, cheers.

    By Blogger Cyrano, at 1:10 a.m.  

  • hmmm - still new to this thing. I guess I need to leave an address or something.

    http://lamedecyrano.blogspot.com

    I think that should direct you properly.

    By Blogger Cyrano, at 1:17 a.m.  

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