Tuesday, October 24, 2006

What He Said

I was going to go into a long rant on the Quebec is a nation thing today but then I found out that Kennedy's Alberta team has "an affinity" for Michael Ignatieff (according to Senator Grant Mitchell) so, as part of my newfound affinity for Michael, I'll lay off of him for today. Besides, I've already gone on about why this is a horrible idea before so people can just click on the link if they want to know my take.

Instead, I invite everyone to take a look at Paul Wells who, as usual, is bang on. Oh, and so I don't have to post a link to it later, go visit Andrew Coyne's site (he's baaaack!) since I know he's going to have something good to say when he gives his two cents on this tomorrow.


UPDATE: Gerry Byrne clarifies everything:

At the other extreme, Newfoundland MP Gerry Byrne, another Ignatieff supporter, said recognizing Quebec as a nation is no big deal. He said Acadians and aboriginal peoples are routinely called nations, so why not a province? Indeed, why not his own province?

"We are a nation of nations so I don't really see this as a thin edge of the wedge issue," Byrne said in an interview.

He noted that Newfoundland and Labrador "was actually a nation until 1949" when it joined Canada. And he wouldn't rule out recognizing Ontario or other provinces as nations as well.



UPDATE: PDO breaks down the actual resolution which was passed in Quebec. And Coyne's column can be read here.

37 Comments:

  • If Edmonton becomes a nation we're annexing St. Albert too. That'll teach 'em.

    By Blogger Hasty, at 12:06 AM  

  • Gerry Byrne's comments I think would inflame the Quebeckers even more than not being called a nation.

    The Saskatchewan Nation, sounds good to me!

    By Blogger Liberal Pebbles, at 12:22 AM  

  • Yep, you can thank Ignatieff for another "brilliant" move. He is beyond ridiculous.

    By Blogger Liberals unite, at 12:23 AM  

  • I don't claim to have the knowledge required to fully understand the implications of this nation stuff but it's all very worrying.

    By Blogger Dan McKenzie, at 12:33 AM  

  • Gerard Kennedy called Quebec a nation during the debate Saturday!

    By Blogger Altavistagoogle, at 12:34 AM  

  • That Gerry Byrne quote is classic. Does anyone on the Ignatieff campaign understand what their man is proposing?

    By Blogger Jeff Thompson, at 1:04 AM  

  • Does anyone on the Ignatieff team care what he is proposing so long as he gets elected?

    By Blogger Jeremy Kirouac, at 1:14 AM  

  • Ack! You can't let Kennedy king Iggy, CalgaryGrit! Save us with your all-powerful blog!

    By Blogger J. Kelly, at 4:34 AM  

  • Ignatieff is "our Chalabi" sent here by ?? after more than 30 years in exile. Who sent this "Trojan Horse" and why was the old Liberal core foolish enough to buy this horse? Ignatieff certainly won't win a general election (that was not his mission) but he will do irreparable damage perhaps even destroy the Liberal party in the meantime.

    By Blogger Rural Ontario Liberal, at 5:07 AM  

  • Unfortunately the "nation" genie is out of the bottle again, and we will have to do something with it.

    More unfortunately, rejecting it in Montreal will cause even more problems as the rejection will be used as proof of the rejection of Quebec by English Canada.

    Thanks Iggy. I hope you have a plan to get us out of this problem in a way that meets the expectations that have been built up in a way that is acceptable to all.

    By Blogger yyclaw, at 8:41 AM  

  • Proof positive that those whose adult lives have been spent in Universities aren't exactly from a place I like to call Earth...

    By Blogger Left Right and Center, at 9:30 AM  

  • Proof positive that those whose adult lives have been spent in Universities aren't exactly from a place I like to call Earth...

    By Blogger Left Right and Center, at 9:30 AM  

  • Couple things...I always thought annexing was reserved for stuff you wanted...like Joe's pool....and no one wants St. Albert...and I'm not sure you buy a Trojan Horse so much as you accept it.

    Finally...as far as Ignatieff's (and co.) comments go...if Harper can overcome his association with the NCC, and his comments about firewalls and the Maritimes...this stuff about nations probably won't sink his hopes or destroy the party...so everyone just breathe easy and give Kennedy a few years to improve his french...or to let Dalton find his way to Ottawa...then we can do this whole party-destroying leadership process again.

    By Blogger Small Town Shyster, at 9:45 AM  

  • Let's just rip this country open at the seams. Why should we wait for the Bloc to do it when Michael Ignatieff can do it better!

    Is anyone asking where Ignatieff was in the 80's or 90's when Canada had two referendums and several constitutional debates? Where was he when he country was at the brink? Did he just not care then?

    By Blogger Riley Hennessey, at 9:51 AM  

  • All the more reason to make sure that Dion wins it. History shows that the take no nonsense from Quebec nationalists actually wins elections for the Liberals in Quebec. People respect strength, not arch-appeasers.

    Dion has the intellectual wherewithall to demolish the separatists, and to sell Canada on its merits.

    It comes down to integrity vs opportunism. going for the latter assures the Bloc quebecois of long life and prosperity.

    By Blogger Smok Wawelski, at 9:53 AM  

  • Michael Ignatieff...a Mulroney Liberal.

    By Blogger godot10, at 10:04 AM  

  • I have no problem thinking of us as a nation of nations, with two caveats:

    1. that first nation has to come first, and

    2. any of the second nations ought not to get extra powers. Some are not more equal, etc.

    That being the case, I see no point to any of what Ignatieff is doing. Constitutions are for prospective governance, not hugs and pats on the back.

    By Blogger matt, at 11:04 AM  

  • I find the attempts by the Ignatieff Liberals to recognize Quebec as a nation in the constitution highly problematic for 5 reasons:

    1) The francophone nation is not synonymous with the province of Quebec.

    2) There are many civic nations in Canada; a definition of nation based on civic values begs the real question of cultural difference.

    3) Recognition doesn’t bring substantive change; it is merely a symbolic and semantic gesture that doesn’t give Quebec any additional powers.

    4) The only substantive changes — Senate reform and compensation for public actions that impact property rights — which are contingent upon Conservative support, will radically alter the public sector’s role.

    5) Canada cannot be “completed” by constitution; unlike the U.S., Canada’s constitution is not an originating document; instead it must be allowed to evolve with changing circumstances.

    For an explanation of these points, see HERE.

    By Blogger Gregory D. Morrow, at 11:05 AM  

  • 1. The Quebecois are a nation. Anyone who has lived in Quebec can see that.

    2. It is very difficult to tell a group of people who believe they are nation that they are in fact not.

    3. None of the above means that Quebec's status needs to be recognized in the Constitution of Canada. The French language and Catholicism have all the protection they need.

    4. Re: Gerry Byrne claiming Newfoundland as a nation prior to 1949 - assuming the political entity of Nfld. is being referred to, it has never been a nation. A colony of the British empire, yes, not a nation.

    By Blogger Matthew, at 11:16 AM  

  • Where exactaly do large and distinct Francophone populations like the one we have in Manitoba fit into Quebec nationhood?

    Quebec is not a nation, it is a province in Canada.

    Recognize the unique Francophone Community in Canada, but do not tie it into the Quebec boarders.

    The Sepratists have to know that if they ever leave all they get is Quebec city and a little land around it. Canada keeps Montreal and the North.

    By Blogger Manitoba Liberal, at 11:38 AM  

  • 4. Re: Gerry Byrne claiming Newfoundland as a nation prior to 1949 - assuming the political entity of Nfld. is being referred to, it has never been a nation. A colony of the British empire, yes, not a nation.

    In fact, Newfoundland was an independent country, like Canada, from 1907 to 1934 when it gave up its self governing status to become a colony again. If my memory of history is correct, it has to do with the financial calapse brought on by one of John Crosby's relatives who was finance minister at the time.

    By Blogger yyclaw, at 11:45 AM  

  • And then there are the aboriginal people, "Our First Nations".

    One way to deal with this at the convention is to add other nations to the resolution from Quebec by amendment.

    The more nations that we add, the more meaningless the resolution becomes, in constitutional terms.

    So I am all for the Aboriginal Nations, all for NewFoundland & Labrador, and all for all varieties of hyphenated Canadians who helped build this country.

    We need to prepare amendments and get the rulebook to figure out how to present them

    By Blogger Down & Out in L A, at 12:40 PM  

  • The news today is that the Kennedy and Dion camps are talking.

    Personally I think that is a very good thing for the Liberal party.

    Everyone who supports either candidate should do what they can to encourage these groups to work together.

    Here is the link or go to www.bourque.org

    http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1161726632800&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467

    By Blogger Down & Out in L A, at 12:43 PM  

  • if the toronto star wrote an article on it, it must be true. but wait, grant mitchell said kennedy's people were talking to ignatieff and going to him. well, at least there is a discussion and rumours going on, more than we can say about the rae delegates in quebec where there has been a strange silence. are people there signing confidentiality agreements? how come the volpe fine came out so publicly so quickly, and here we have a confession that takes much time to investigate.

    By Blogger ktr, at 12:55 PM  

  • change quebec to B.C. sorry.

    By Blogger ktr, at 12:55 PM  

  • to follow on Manitoba Liberal's point -

    what nation do anglophones in Quebec constitute? we are, at least, a province several times larger than PEI, we live, relatively in a geographically contiguous area of Quebec.

    can we get nation status too please?

    we are as distinct from Quebec as Quebec is from Canada. Its only right. I'm not asking anyone to commit war crimes on my behalf, but I would sure love Iggy to come out swinging for those of us who say,

    "Montreal is my nation, Quebec is my homeland, Canada is my passport issuer."

    By Blogger Chuckercanuck, at 1:34 PM  

  • Here is an update on those Ignatieff -Kennedy negotiations from the Globe & Mail.


    "However, the Ignatieff team is hoping their candidate's appeal in Quebec will convince Liberals elsewhere that he's the one who can win the province and, hence, the next election. His advisers have begun to talk openly about nabbing delegates from third-place contender Gerard Kennedy after the first ballot on Dec. 2.

    But that drew an angry retort Tuesday from one senior Kennedy supporter.

    Senator Terry Mercer said Ignatieff is "accident prone" and his many gaffes have caused his campaign to stall.

    The proposal to recognize Quebec as a nation is "an attempt to jump start it but it won't work because there've been too many stumbles," Mercer said in an interview.

    If anything, Mercer said Ignatieff delegates are coming over to Kennedy because they now believe Ignatieff represents too big a risk."


    Hmmmm. Looks like Mr. Ignatieff's negotiators are off to a good start.

    My friends who are undeclared ex-officios are also getting hounded by Ignatieff people, with similar success.

    By Blogger Down & Out in L A, at 2:51 PM  

  • Stephane Dion's response to the Quebec Nation position was published in LaPresse yesterday.

    It is translated by Paul Wells today.

    It is very important that delegates understand the issue and it's implications before going to the Convention to vote on the resolution.

    Even though he is an acadmic, he writes clearly and eloquently, asking the readers to think about some important questions.

    Responding in this way demonstrates true leadership.

    By Blogger Down & Out in L A, at 4:37 PM  

  • "However, the Ignatieff team is hoping their candidate's appeal in Quebec will convince Liberals elsewhere that he's the one who can win the province and, hence, the next election. His advisers have begun to talk openly about nabbing delegates from third-place contender Gerard Kennedy after the first ballot on Dec. 2.

    Ya sure. Good luck with that. not this Kennedy-ite.

    By Blogger Kyle Carruthers, at 6:35 PM  

  • I'm glad I'm not the only one to say my new-standard line whenever Ignatieff comes up, but:

    Quebec is not a nation, and it well never, ever BE a nation. The Quebecois are one, absolutely - but the multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multi-theistic, multi-lingual province of Quebec does not fit the very criteria that Ignatieff himself sets to define "nation".

    The professor is wrong, and a total catastrophe. If you guys pick him, there's no question who I'll be voting for - his name rhymes with Even Yarper.

    It's frustrating, by the way, how many Ignatieff supporters refuse to take a second look at his comments and analyze them.

    By Blogger Jason Bo Green, at 6:51 PM  

  • The Ignatieff team is doing exactly that - hounding delegates from other camps - and it aint going down well. Many are annoyed and upset at the pushiness and rudeness of the approach. Ignatieff's team does not seem to respect the democratic choice of delegates who choose to support another candidate on the first, second and subsequent ballots. Signs of arrogance, signs of desperation.

    By Blogger jpl, at 7:34 PM  

  • For the ones who are intersted in discussing Québec's politic with separatists, federalists, nationalists, autonomists,etc.. here his a great forum, in french:
    http://www.politiquebec.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=1

    It's a good place to debate you idea of the Québec's nation.

    By Blogger ecrelin, at 11:20 PM  

  • yyclaw said...

    More unfortunately, rejecting it in Montreal will cause even more problems as the rejection will be used as proof of the rejection of Quebec by English Canada.


    Since when does the Liberal Party represent all of "English Canada"? The Liberal Party speaks for the Liberal Party, full stop. Not for "English Canada", not for the "Rest of Canada", and most certainly not for me.

    Get over yourselves.

    By Blogger pheenster, at 1:33 AM  

  • well small town Shyster, St. Albert does have that nice little down town and also a really good mall (ha!). Plus it would drive the nation of Calgary nuts when we build our national Edmonton headquarters on the property that used to belong to Jerome Iginla... right on top of his house would be good.

    By Blogger Hasty, at 2:24 PM  

  • Doing it to piss of Calgary...I can support that.

    By Blogger Small Town Shyster, at 2:58 PM  

  • It is Jarome Iginla

    By Blogger fartcatcher, at 10:55 PM  

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